Same reason why a supertanker has little defences, Its not a warship.

Quite irrelevant.

The point is, they're both the same kind of ship: a non-combat industrial-type ship meant for one thing and one thing only (and, just to repeat that: it's not combat). You can still squeeze 30k EHP out of a Hulk, and that's fairly respectable for what it is and what it's supposed to be doing.

Hulk is fine.
Miners (and their non-existent tanking knowledge) are the problem. Its funny, people try to teach them to tank, and post fits, they simply ignore the fit, and pretend it doesn't exist.

If the Hulk was 'bad' nobody would use it. They would fly Covetors instead.
The Hulk is in the top five of 'most flown ships' - 3rd IIRC. The Covetor is WAY down the list.

Pretty obvious to me that what these carebears want - is massive EHP without having to dedicate low and rigs slots for the purpose. Essentially, 75-80K EHP on the standard '2x Cargo mod/MLU, 2x Cargo rig" fit.

Then, they will lobby for even more Concord buffs/ganking nerfs - rendering ganks nearly impossible. Sure, it will still be 'possible' - but if it requires the coordination of a large group and/or massive loss of ISK on each gank....it will be an exceedingly rare event.

Result: Carebear miner paradise, where Hulks can AFK/macro mine all day. Risk free.

Cruisers - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields
Battleships - designed for combat, so have decent armour and shields
Industrials - designed for haulage, so have decent cargo capacity
Mining barges - designed for mining, so have access to unique mining lasers

I see no problem here. Each ship is designed for its purpose. Giving a hulk a good tank would be like giving an industrial eight turret slots; it is inappropriate for the ship class, and has nothing in common with the intended purpose of the ship.

Youre right. they should make it so you CANT
AT ALL
fit defensive stuff on that "NON COMBAT" ship

as it is after all non combat

Yes? So? That's a good thing.
.

Why would you say troll? EFT begs to differ. Only prob is 17 mins of cap. But he, you don't need the booster all the time right :) natural shield repair already is 84 dps. That's more then sufficient in highsec.

Look at what CCP did last few years
Boosted all gankers tools and gave them new ships too
And what they did with mining tools??? Nothing

In the last 6 months CCP boosted all destroyers by 25%!!
They boosted hybrids by lest say around 15%
They introduced Tier 3 BCs that can kill few hulks before concord comes and its cheaper then tools gankers had before
Everything on this field is against miners and for wuss "PVP-ers".

And now they are going to boost the rest of cheaper combat ships...

The thing is, that cuts both ways: there's very little in the way of sensible arguments for enabling them to fit one either. Like you say, it won't make much difference. Yay, it now has 50k EHP instead of 35k, and will still die horribly to a proper gankGǪ

GǪand people still won't tank it and will still die to improper ganks. So why bother?

Er, most of them actually if we're going on mineral cost.

Don't forget prices of Hulks are inflated due to demand for the ultimate mining vessel and the market is current fubar anyway.

What is the max amount of DPS a ganker can do in 0.5 before concord show up?

Sigh, another one who never actually mined (yes you are smart for doing not so).
You DO realize that at some point I lose contact with the stooped roid and sluggish as that brick in space is, if I'm not blind by pure boredom or just look the other way because i'm distracted having doing NOT A THING for ages I lose whatever is between the roid and my under tanked Hulk, while I try to make a turn to a second safespot?


Mining is one of the worst badly developed and implemented, even under developed things in EVE with CCP looking the other way for over 6 years.

Why should I if I don't like it?

And who tells you I wouldn't know how to?

But I must be blind and stupid to not see the gimpnes of Mining and Industrial ships. Even my hamster might have enough brain to see it.

By your logic all battleship pilots would be fools to not see the epic gimpness of their mining capabilities.

Meanwhile, non-morons call this a "role" and accept it.

You are stupid to try and mine in hulkageddon/BAT interdiction area?

The hardest mining ship in empire to gank is the veldought and even that docks up in hulkageddon.

Do you realize that the reason for this is more than simply making it easier to stay in a group to make your haulers life easier?

Sure it should. The fact that a new character in a destroyer can kill this expensive and low-to-mid req (in terms of skills) ship is a sign of good design.

I think they do this now. It's 10 hours, right?

I'm not saying there's no room for change, just confirming that the mechanic is currently in-place if they ever did.

When I compare prices, I compare prices from manufacturer or importer for both products so that I dont have a problem with not knowing how much middlemans were there and how big their margin were.
And you like to use price for one thing form one quy that bought that thing from manufacturer and second from 10th middleman.
Good for you.
I see now how you allways "win" a debate.

Over and out.

Sadly, the gankbears are just as protected by Concord as the miners. Here's to high hopes for crimewatch 2.0.

High sec being a more dangerous place to mine than null sec .

But what THEY expect to do is sit AFK and fatten their filthy wallets while rules lawyers bawl it up to CCP to protect the poor innocent tykes from the big bad wolf.

You don't even need a super tank.
Fit a 15-20k ehp hulk and mine beside the guy that fits his hulk with a civilian shield booster.
Once he gets ganked, it's time to move.

Prove it.

What argument was I ignoring?

If it was a dog, it would have sniffed you. Blind as stated.

It's entertaining truthfully, wonder if they can turn this into a threadnaught by their views alone.

I'm trying to, but he can't provide the on-topic argument he supposedly made, which makes it very hard to respond to itGǪ vOv

wow look at this, a 42k ehp hulk

http://i.imgur.com/2kY32.jpg

pack ECM drones

Yes, it's called "adapting."

EVE is about making choices. You can't have it both ways - fit to survive, or fit for maximum yield. Not both.

If you choose to mine somewhere out of the way with a max-yield fit Hulk, at the expense of having to fly a longer route to get your ore/minerals to market, that's another valid choice.

no, minerals are going up across the board because of traders speculating on the imminent rogue drone nerf

If only EVE was a multiplayer game

even before bots were so prevalent... peeps would semi aft mining... most watching movies and what not... mining is not fun and if you think its fun there is something mentally wrong with you!

did you play the game before drone regions were introduced?

indeed i read that over and it was funny... but alas there is no font on the Internets for humor so sometimes complex ideas such as sarcasm can be taken as a serious statement... my apologies...

but its more in reference to a different eve that sans combat mining will return in an interesting way... most people don't really get what removing combat mining means to eve... which makes my comment rather relevant if you think about it...

To not get blown up. A destroyer will kill said covetor while the hulk will keep on chugging rocks which makes the hulk a fair bit more isk efficient.

Yeah, I missed the last few pages of this particular debate.

When Caps and then Super Caps were introduced CCP learned, and publicly announced, that they err'ed in their belief that cost would make an effiective balancing point.

This is why those ships, super caps in particular, have been scaled back in capability repeatedly since that point. CCP believed that their high cost would ensure that they never became numerous in game, that cost would balance their extreme effectiveness.

Now we have thousands of super caps in game, and they are a serious issue that is still being sorted out.

People proved that you cannot balance a ship via it's cost, as if it's effective at what it does people WILL come up with the ISK regardless of how rediculous the price is... and you will end up with tons of "unbalanced" ships in the game.

CCP pointed this out pretty clearly, and has reinterated the point several times since then. I'm really not sure why this debate is still going on.

And still CCP is going to BOOST frigs and CRUISERS
after they boosted destroyers.

It's not irrelevant to me GÇö it doesn't exist to me, so it can't be irrelevant. What I'm saying is that, going by what you just said, it's completely irrelevant to you since you're a proper industrialist and have included all the cost of doing business in your business plan. At that point the imagined GÇ£low income vs. AFKabilityGÇ¥ contract no longer applies GÇö you're treating the matter completely differently, and are dealing with losses as normal write-offs.

It is as Baltec said. If you choose to fly a ship into a combat zone without a basic tank, without an escort or choose to pick a ship for a combat environment that is not designed for it nobody can help you. It is your own stupidity that sees you tied to that stake.

and when my talos kills your tanked out hulk before cc arrives what then?

your point is that if you fit for isk per hour then you deserve to die but you also claim the ship has a good tank that it can defend its self against ganks " that it's your decision to make it a crappy tank. You can also decide not to make it crappy."

your argument is fit either for tank or for income... but even if you fit for tank you will still die... so what exactly is your point?

you own a 1400 II bpo and nuetron blaster cannon II bpo or something?

We seem to be moving in circles. You can choose:

(a) Tank the ship at the expense of mining yield
(b) Have a friend or alt fly escort for you
(c) Fly a different hull that is safer, but yields less

It is not a stupid ship, unless you personally choose to ignore all the options and continuously beat your head against the wall. I can't help you with that. You need to make the choice to step away from that wall.

The circles are the result of the narrow focus of the debate, a narrow focus the gankbear community wishes to maintain.


a) And get almost the same yeild as C for less cost and Risk.
b) Consume somone else's time and share profits, which will profit below A or C.
c) Profit, because the hulk is a stupid ship in the current environment.

D) Other options where the circles end.

Have your second like.

Too be fair, the iteron was never meant to be used in hostile environments. The hulk is designed for mining in hostile envrionments, as stated in the description. You really cant compare them.

In short: an industrial pilot in hisec has to behave exactly as if they were in low sec, with the disadvantage of not being allowed to shoot first.

I am curious about your stance on Mackinaws. They make Hulk sound sturdy yet they HAVE to sit in overcrowded, easy to find belts.